Pippa Cramer and The Hymns We Love

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to Questions that Matter. This is a podcast of the C.S. lewis Institute. I'm your host, Randy Newman. And those of you have listened to this podcast know that I love music. I was a music major, and so I'm drawn to talking to people about music, why it moves us so much. In a little while, I'll be interviewing Jeremy Begbie, who has written several books about music. But I'm. I'm really thrilled to have Pip Cramer now as my guest today and to talk about hymns and a very. A really beautiful evangelistic program she's put together called Hymns We Love. Let me show it to those of you looking at it. It's a kit which includes a participant's guide and a leader's guide. I first heard about this, I was speaking at a conference on evangelism in the uk, and different people were getting up and talking about different ways. They were experimenting with trying different things about evangelism. And Pippa got up and talked about going to nursing homes where elderly people were and inviting them to a hymn sing. And old people know these hymns that people have been singing for hundreds of years, but many of them have no idea what they're singing. And so the words of the hymns became vehicles for proclaiming the gospel. I mean, I wanted to jump out of my seat, and now it's become a whole program that. That can be multiplied in so many places. I need to stop talking. Pippa, welcome to Questions that Matter. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Oh, thank you, Randy. And thank you for having me. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Oh, you're very welcome. So tell a little bit more than what I've just told about how you got into this. How did this outreach develop? [00:01:55] Speaker B: Well, I've always loved older people. I love all people, to be honest. But I do have a special place in my heart for those that are older. I think originally that that kind of grew. When I was a little girl, I had the most amazing grandparents who I just adored. In my working life, I've worked. I am an occupational therapist. I think you have OTs in the states, don't you? [00:02:23] Speaker A: Yes, occupational therapist. [00:02:26] Speaker B: And I always loved it when my patients were older. I just, it's. It was the biggest joy for me. So. And I, for the last 12, 13 years or so, I've been working for our local church in Claygate in Surrey, where I live in the uk and I am pastoral care and seniors minister there. And I've been involved, well, in setting up a group for seniors for older people. I was just very aware that for a lot of churches, the big focus on children and young people and families, which of course is so, so important. But not as many churches had a thriving seniors ministry. So after a lot of prayer, we came up with this idea of setting up a group called Connections, which is a weekly group I run at the church, and with the aim of bringing people to Jesus and showing love and care and welcome and hospice, hospitality and generosity. It started very small. It's grown to one of the largest groups in the UK now we 140 people coming. But yesterday we had our Christmas Connections, which was just the biggest joy. And it's a safe place for older people to come to where they can, as I said, be known and loved. Each person is so special. We have activities, we have a thought for the day. We always have delicious coffee and cake. And I would say it's a highly relational model of evangelism, actually. So trust is built up over time, and that seems to give us permission to gently talk about Jesus and how much he loves them. But I was really keen to find a resource, a course, if you like, that would connect well with this generation particularly. I tried various different things and just none of them seemed to quite hit the spot. So I, I'm quite passionate about praying. So I really, I mean, I, I prayed for a long time before we set Connections up, but I spent a lot of time praying for how God wanted us to reach this very precious, sadly, often overlooked generation. And this idea of using hymns as a way of gently sharing the gospel with them began to emerge. [00:04:58] Speaker A: I, I really do think this is beautiful. So, so beautiful. But I, I want to underline a few things. You said that you have this, this heart and this passion for old people. I, I almost wanted to, like, pause and say, okay, wait a minute, you know, not everybody does. And, and, and this is really, really crucial, I think, about discerning the gifts that God gives us. And so we tend to think that, well, if I'm like this, probably everybody is like this. Well, no, there's a whole lot of people who, who don't care about old people, but they love little babies and, or certain groups of people or certain styles of connecting with people. And I have friends who love apologetics and philosophical arguments, and they get into great conversations with really brilliant philosophers and nobody else knows what they're talking about. And I say, may God bless them, Lord. It's another planet, but on that planet, please bring about salvation. And I just, I just loved it when you said, I'm drawn and I love old people. I have, I have another friend who would say that Exact same thing. And she works in occupational therapy and, and it feels like, well, God gave me this love for science and the physical body, but who are the people who I need to help the most? And I just love it. I think that's so great. Well, do you have a musical background as well? [00:06:36] Speaker B: Reasonably, yes. Yeah, I used to. Well, I don't, you know, I don't have time now, Randy, sadly. But I do play the piano and I used to play the violin and I have a very musical daughter. So, yeah, I. And I have, I mean, I love all music. I do. And I adore more modern worship music. I mean, anyone that knows me, I have Spotify going the whole time with my favorite worship songs playing. But I just love these old hymns. And I think you discover more about who wrote the hymns, their story, their hit, the history of these hymns as well, often. It's absolutely, absolutely fascinating. And the other thing that we've found, which is interesting is people will come along because they kind of are interested in the history. They will also come along because they like singing and they've grown up with these hymns. I think particularly for this generation, pretty much all of them grew up singing hymns at school or in Sunday school. So they are very, very familiar. And the other thing we've really found, which is extraordinary, which I'm sure many of your viewers will know, that music recognition is one of the last things in our memories to go. [00:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:07:53] Speaker B: People who have struggle, you know, who struggle with their memories, dementia, oh, my goodness. We've got quite a few people who are actually struggling to talk now, but they can still sing. And it's been so beautiful to see tears spilling out of eyes as, as these precious ones are singing these hymns that they grew up with. And you know, long term memory, these, these hymns are almost part of their DNA, I suppose. So it's, yeah, it's a very beautiful thing. [00:08:25] Speaker A: And, and I have to believe that there's a lot more that gets through to people even if they can't show response. I know that as people get older, they just don't show facial response and maybe even because of dementia or other limitations they can't express. But we need to count on, you know, that's not an obstacle too big for God and Alzheimer's is not an impenetrable force for the Holy Spirit. And so things get through as we proclaim truth, as we recite scripture, as we call people to respond, even if they can't let us know that they've responded. And so it's A very, I don't know a way not to use a cliche. It is a very faith based ministry because you're really trusting in the power of God and the power of His Word. [00:09:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree so 100%. And do you know, even the other day we brought we have a Heart, the Herald Angels, seeing one of the videos that it's for Christmas especially, it's one of our introductory sessions and we've taken it to all the care homes that we visit and sheltered accommodation the other day. This particular care home specializes in neuro rehab and a lot of the people there can't speak and well, every single one of them is wheelchair bound. But as we. And I was a bit worried to start with, I thought, oh gosh, the video might, you know, it might be a little bit long. I mean it isn't long but the talk might be a little bit long, 10, 12 minutes. But I sat at the back, a colleague of mine was running, running the session from the front and I was just praying exactly what you said there, Randy, about for the Holy Spirit to be touching and working in lives. These wonderful people that were listening. And there was this one lady who couldn't speak at all and through her hand she had a special box that she would communicate and every so often you would hear. Yes coming out and then a few more minutes later when a point. Steve was making a point. Yes. And others and they were tears. It's just. Oh yes, I was sitting quietly crying because it was just so beautiful and I was praying exactly what you just said, for the Lord to be doing what only he can do. So it is, it's just the biggest privilege to be able to share. I'm going to start crying now. It is the most biggest privilege to be able to share the good news of Jesus with people through these beautiful hymns. [00:11:11] Speaker A: So yeah, so let's step into a session. You invite people to. What are you inviting them to? Is it a hymn sing? Is that what you're calling it? Or a program about the hymns we love? [00:11:26] Speaker B: Well, we deliberately don't call it a course because in my experience with older people, they don't really like the idea of a course. [00:11:35] Speaker A: What if they're not trying to go for a degree? [00:11:38] Speaker B: Exactly. What if I can't keep up? And I've had people say, you know, I don't think I could cope with a test at the end. And I'd say there's no test. But even so, very few people would come. So we call this a series, a series of sessions. They're available in video form, so really easy, really straightforward to use. You either download the videos or we've got a dvd, if that's easier, or you can give the talk yourself. The scripts are available and you would use your own pianist or organist or whoever to play. So it's kind of more of a live session. But yeah, so we invite them along to sessions to discover more about the hymns. And we've chosen the hymns very intentionally. We've prayed for hours about which ones to use. They are deliberately chosen to talk about a particular aspect of the Christian faith. So, I mean, if. I don't know if you'd like me to tell you, but as I've said, the Herald Angels Sing is one that we can use at Christmas, equivalent of the sort of Alpha Supper type talk, if you like. We've also got another one for Easter, which is looking at Thine Be the Glory Suns and whatever. And then the other one, which you can use at any time of the year, is that beautiful hymn My Song is Love Unknown and that's just the most way of interesting people. And then the series itself is made up of five sessions, so it's not too long. And again, that's quite deliberate. We've got two more series in the wings actually waiting. [00:13:13] Speaker A: I was going to ask. Good, yes. [00:13:15] Speaker B: That's good to hear this first one, the first hymn is How Great Thou Art, looking at how amazing God is and how he longs to have a relationship with us. And the second one is Rock of Ages, looking at why Jesus had to die. The third one is Amazing Grace, God's Lavish Grace. And looking at the story of John Newton and the prodigal Son, we bring that in. That's probably my favorite of all the talks, actually. It's beautiful. And we actually film in the church or just outside of the church in Bedfordshire in the uk, which is the church that John Newton went on to become. [00:13:58] Speaker A: Oh, man. [00:14:00] Speaker B: Really precious and, oh, so lovely. The fourth one is the Lord's My shepherd, which is so beautiful and so, so helpful for us to know that Jesus is like the good shepherd and he's there journeying with us through the good and the harder times. And that's a very precious one, actually. And then the final one, the fifth one, is that beautiful Charles Wesley hymn and can it be, you know, all about how we can have confidence in our relationship with God. You know, it's not about what we need to do or, you know, he's so amazing. And at the end of that, we. We lead. I lead People watching in a lovely, simple but thought through for old ears and minds prayer, leading them to the Lord and giving their lives to the Lord. So yeah, we've also got two leaders guides again available in videos as well as in the scripts for anyone who is considering or thinking about maybe running this in their local churches or in a care home or the other thing I didn't mention actually maybe people think it's just for care homes. It really, really isn't. I mean as I've said, we run it in our for seniors which is held in our local church and lots of churches UK are doing that. But you can run it in a cafe, you could run it in a small group with a small group of people if you've got a big enough television pastoral visits one to one in people's homes. Oh these, these talks and listening to the hymn on a one to one session and somebody's, you know, even at. By somebody's bedside. I'm just thinking of one of our older chaps who was in his 90s. What a journey he went through. He came along, he was visiting his wife, his late wife's grave in the churchyard actually. And one of my team spotted him and invited him into Connections for coffee and he sort of gingerly poked his nose through the door and then scuttled off again. And then the next week he actually did come in and had a coffee with us and then anyway, long story short, he started to join the group. Very much a belonging before you believe type of situation. He. But he loved the love and care and the welcome he received. He then went on to, to attend Hymns We Love which we ran and for him it was Rock of Ages that so much to him and he yeah and during the pandemic we had to do things so, so differently of course and we were visiting people rather than them being allowed to come out to us taking Jesus or church if you like, two people. But we gave him, gave everybody a little, you know, one of these little wooden handheld crosses. He loved this little cross and, and actually earlier in the year he became very unwell and he was bed bound and he was nearing the end of his life and I obviously I was visiting and each time I'd visit his little cross was next to him and he'd hold it whenever, pray and he, he said to me, pippa, I'm no longer afraid of dying. I used to be terrible dying. I know where I'm going now. And it was Rock of Ages that really kind of cemented it for me and just held onto that cross. And actually he then went on to die. And I was visiting the daughter who was at the house actually after a couple of days after he died, and I said to this lovely lady, I said, you know, because she was through her tears and I was crying with her, but I said, you know, maybe you could hold on to dad's little cross because you know how much it meant to him. And she looked at me and she said, oh, oh, no, Peppa, no, no, no, no. Dad wanted that little cross with him. So when he died, when he passed from life to death, he was holding on to his cross and he knew where he was going. And she said, and he wants that with him when he gets buried. And so, and, and she said, well, don't worry, I've got another one, because you. I don't know if, you know, you gave him two. And I'd forgotten that other cross. She, she isn't yet a believer, but she's holding on to this cross. Now, you know, Randy, at that funeral, I mean, I go to a lot of funerals, but at that particular one, knowing when the coffin was at the front of church, knowing that dear, this dear chap had his cross with him, I just thought that that was just so beautiful. So, yeah, yeah. A little example of, of one of the hymns how it really has really meant so much to. [00:18:48] Speaker A: Wow, that's so good. That's so good. And again, you know, well, I, I'm. I'm wrestling a little bit because a great deal that I have heard in my experience in ministry, I, I'm almost, I am embarrassed to say this out loud, but there, there, there's a lot of emphasis on being strategic and you want to influence people who will influence others. You want to go with people who have. Who are in the most strategic positions. And for a very long time, for me, that was being on the college campus, because college students, they're the future of our world. And yes, yes, yes, I think that's very important. But what gets eclipsed is all of the people who are create in the image of God and precious to God, but may not be all that strategic. They're not going to go on and have lengthy careers. Some of them may die within a few days. And they're probably not the influencers and the movers and the shakers. Isn't the gospel for them too? So, yes, many people are called to the centers of power and the important cities and the strategic locations. Great. May the Lord bless them. And I want to be careful. I'm not trying to Say that that's bad. The organization I work for, the C.S. lewis Institute, it was started in Washington D.C. because there were so many Christians in Washington, D.C. in strategic locations. And may the Lord continue to bless us. But I don't want to belabor this. There are plenty of people who are so very, very important because they're people create in the image of God. And it seems to me that your ministry, it's like this intersection of a number of streams that may not be flowing all that much longer in time. You have people who grew up in a culture where they heard these hymns and even sang them in schools, even though they're Christian hymns. They sang them in secular schools. Well, that's probably not happening too much anymore. And then there are people who, they grew up at a time when I think there was a big period of time in the UK and also in the US where I hate to say it, but it's like the gospel was assumed. And so we, we never really called people to commitment or decision or whatever you want to call it. So it just sort of assumed that if people went to church, okay, they're, you know, well, they're Christians by sort of osmosis. And then there came this dramatic shift of, wait a minute, no, no. Jesus said to a very religious man, nicodemus, you need to be born again. And so there needs to be a reaping as well as a sowing. And this is a group of people who grew up at a time when sowing was very big, but reaping wasn't. And here comes an opportunity to draw all these things together from their lives. And I, I just think it's, it's timely with, with bold and underlined and exclamation points. Yeah, yeah, no, I. So give us. Oh, please, tell us more. [00:22:18] Speaker B: I was just going to say as well that ODA adults are the fastest growing age demographic across the Western world as well. And I was. And in fact, I wrote it down. I gather in the US older adults are set to outnumber children by 2034. Certainly in the UK it's much smaller. But there are over 12 million over 65s in the UK and that figure set to rise. And I mean, it's, it's wonderful that we are all living longer, but actually that brings a lot of challenges with it too as well. And I think loneliness and isolation can become so much more exacerbated as you lose perhaps a partner or your peer group, your friends, the group shrinks, or you're not very well and you've just lost your confidence. So it's an amazing opportunity and actually there's a sense of urgency, what you were just saying there, Andy. I so agree. You know, if we don't reach these precious people before they die, there is a sense of urgency. And that's my biggest prayer. I mean, I have a very big prayer which actually came about. This was at the beginning of the. Just before the pandemic, in fact. Actually, it was soon after then, Randy, that you and I were at the All Souls Langham Place Conference, because I think that was the autumn 2019, as you say, we are. We were sort of trying hymns we love. And it was the January 2020. I deliberately went away for a few days to a little cottage. Some friends of mine had this little cottage by the sea on the south coast of the uk and I went with the intention to pray, really pray for how we could share hymns we love and actually connections as well on a bigger scale and how. What the best way forward would be. So I sat down to start praying and each time I pressed, I prayed. I found myself. I couldn't help it, I started crying and I was just going, come on, just pray, Pippa, just pray. [00:24:25] Speaker A: Pull it together. [00:24:26] Speaker B: I rang my mum and I said, this is ridiculous. You can't seem to pray without crying. And she said, darling, just go with it. So I prayed, cried for four days and at the end of this very, very special time, I felt God gave me this big, bold vision, prayer, whatever you want to call it, and it was quite big and I was almost a bit embarrassed to tell people when I got back home what it was. But this prayer is what has really, really a prayer. I pray every single day and it's for hundreds of thousands of older people. Well, it was a. I'll just leave it at that for the moment. Hundreds of thousands of older people to be given the opportunity to hear the good news of Jesus and just discover how amazing or wonderful God is and how much he loves them. And of course, as all those people, I'm just thinking, as you know, hymns aren't just sung in England, they're sung all around the world, actually. PRAYER and I pray daily for all the countries around the world, and especially the us, for older people in the US to be able to be given this opportunity. And as you said, you know, they've grown up with these hymns. They may. So many people say to me, oh, I've never actually thought about the words of what I've been singing. Now they understand. And in a typical session, I do the introduction welcoming people along. And then we sing the hymn. It's also. The videos are set in a very picturesque, beautiful English village church. So the shots of the countryside are beautiful. And then we sing the hymn. The congregation sings it with the words at the bottom. Then Steve, my husband, he has wonderfully written all these lovely talks with slides and things just to make it really accessible. Then we sing the hymn again because that's really helpful to reflect whilst. [00:26:33] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes. [00:26:35] Speaker B: And then I end with a sor. Summing up and a prayer at the end leading on to the next session. So looking forward to seeing you next time, etc. And it's. Yeah, it. It just seems to work. You know, the other thing I didn't say was, you know, we would get very few people coming to the course courses, as I said, whereas we would on average get about 60 people coming to hymns we love, which just lovely. In fact, we've just done in our carol services at church. We was asked to give the talk and I did the prayer and hymns we love was plugged. So we're hoping to get a lot of new people who don't normally come to church coming to our next series, which we're starting in January. So it's really exciting. [00:27:23] Speaker A: This big prayer really is for thousands. [00:27:27] Speaker B: Of older people, is very close to my heart. [00:27:31] Speaker A: Well, that is coming through loud and clear and I just love it. But. But I'm so thankful your mother said to go with it. Yeah, you can cry and pray. In fact, tears help us express things that words can't. And so, sure, let the tears flow and crying and praying in front of the Lord. I don't even know what the words are I'm trying to say, but I know what these tears are saying or they're helping me feel. I love all of that. Give us. Give us a little taste. What. So what's. What's one thing that you cover in one of the hymns about? Let's just say about the background of the hymn. What's something that you share with the people about the background of. Pick whichever hymn you want. What's something from the background that points them in the direction of the gospel? [00:28:25] Speaker B: Okay, well, thinking of Amazing Grace then. And the author of the hymn, John Newton, was, as we know, the most horrendous slave trader. I mean, he certainly knew what a Amazing Grace has. Sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. He describes himself as a wretch. And you know, the very fact that he came. He. He came to God and then slipped Back again. So it was, as Steve says in the talk that we have, he was almost worse than the prodigal son because the prodigal son came back and was embraced by the Father. But John Newton slipped back again into the most appalling behavior. And so he came back to God twice. And this lavish, lavish grace that he was shown as the prodigal son. And I just find that so extraordinary that whoever we are, whatever we've done, whether we've led the worst possible life or even just a bit bad, which all of us are sinners, of course, it's just so reassuring to know that Jesus is there ready with his arms outstretched to welcome us home and to forgive us. And. Yeah, it's just incredible. I don't know if that answers your question. [00:29:53] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it does, it does. Again, I think sort of stopping the song, so to speak. You don't stop it while we're singing, but you go back and you look at a line and then you tell about a background, and then you have such a fuller picture. And Amazing Grace is a great example of this because people sing Amazing Grace in all sorts of places, and they don't mean, oh, how much I love Jesus and how I love the gospel. I was at a folk music concert, and it was not a Christian concert. It was not a Christian crowd. And based on the amount of marijuana I was smelling in the crowd, they weren't there for worshiping Jesus. And at one point, the person up front said, this is going to be the last song we're going to do. And we invite you all to join us. Please stand and sing Amazing Grace. And I thought, wait a minute, hold it, everybody. Do you know what you're singing? And so to be able to say, okay, so here's the guy who wrote this. So when he said, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, that it's this kind of grace. So, you know, we can think of grace in this very vague, generic term of, oh, that young lady, she dances with. With grace. And, oh, he handles himself with grace. But there's a specific kind of grace, the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that's talked about in the Scriptures, in the New Testament. And it's the grace of a sinless savior dying to atone for the sins of people who can't atone for their own sins. It's a very specific kind of grace. So the opportunity to explain that to people who've sung that line a million times, like, oh, wait a minute, you know, I remember I. I came to faith out of a Jewish background. And I, I had heard all sorts of Christmas songs because, I mean, you can't avoid them, I mean, especially at Christmas time. Although now, now all the Christmas songs I hear are about frosty and Santa and reindeers. But there was a time when you actually heard Christmas carols being sung in restaurants and malls. And I remember it was either I had just recently become a Christian or I was on the verge and I was hearing Hark the Herald Angels sing and heard the line, God and sinners reconciled. Like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What are they. Okay, reconciled means that they were together once and then they came apart and they're coming back together again. And then later it is, you know, hail the Son of righteousness. Wait a minute, what's going on here? And so to be able to say to somebody, well, you know, actually that's a title that comes from. And let me tell you what it means. So what a, what a wonderful, wonderful ministry you have. I want to say to anybody who's listening, if you're, if you're listening, going, I also have a heart for old people, but I just, I didn't want to tell anybody because it sounds weird. No, no, it's not weird. It's God given. And we're going to have a whole bunch of different links on the show notes. If you want to run one of these kinds of events at your church, what a great opportunity for older godly saints to invite their neighbors, the people that they're at, senior citizen gathering or whatever, or to bring the event to them because a whole lot of them can't come. I just love, I'm so thankful to God that this ministry didn't just stay as. Oh, this is Pippa's little thing that she does over here. The Lord gave you a vision of. No, no, no, this. I mean, wherever there are old people and that's everywhere. This could be a really, really fruitful ministry. I'm so thankful for it. Are there any other last things you want to share with us? We're kind of needing to bring this to a close, but I really want to encourage people to check, check this out. [00:33:56] Speaker B: I suppose one other thing it would be really good to just mention is you don't have to be a vicar or a church leader necessarily to run a Hymns We Love series with your group of older, older friends. You could, I would say any layperson, anyone with a heart for older people who loves the Lord is more than qualified to, to run this. You know, I mean, there's A lot in the Leaders packet goes into all of this and the things you must, might need to consider and think about. But it's incredibly versatile and you use it as you want. You don't, we're not precious about how it's used either. You know, if you, as I said, if you wanted to adapt or shorten or change the talk slightly so that it fits a group of people with dementia, for example, that's absolutely fine. So I would say that and just, and I would also just say if you are thinking, if anyone watching is thinking, oh gosh, that might be something I could do. I just encourage you to pray. That's the biggest, most important thing and it's certainly something I've done. Well, I didn't start. I spent nine months praying before Connections ever started. I just knew I needed the Lord to be leading and guiding on so many different levels and this has borne out of and is saturated in prayer. I would say the other thing just to maybe mention briefly as teams, having a team around you, I'm so conscious I couldn't do any of what I do without the phenomenal teams that I have built up around me who have all these wonderful skills that I don't have. And most of the best ideas come from my teams as well. So that's really important. Again, if you're not sure about how to build a team, I cover that in the Leaders guide as well and the leaders videos. But start with prayer. Ask the Lord who he would like to come alongside you and help you because it might be tricky to do it on your own unless it was a one to one on somebody's home of course. But yeah, lots, probably lots more to say but I know time is short and I would. And just to assure anyone watching, I'm praying for you. I pray as I say, I wake up every morning to pray specifically for people to catch the vision of this, of reaching this very, very precious, as I've said, sadly so often, overlooked and marginalized generation and they need to meet Jesus. [00:36:34] Speaker A: Oh, I love it. I love it. Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned about teams. So first I'll say you teamed up with the Good Book Company and they are really good at producing really great materials. And so the leader's guide is really well done. The videos are top notch, professional and my guess is you couldn't have produced such things on your own. But the other thing is when you get into ministry, it's really important to have several teammates, not primarily about, you know, many hands make light work. You know, getting the job done. It's more for encouragement. Every ministry has its elements of discouragement, and I'm sure that there are people who come once and then they don't come back. Or there are people who. Yeah, I like the singing part. I don't like this stuff when you're preaching. I mean, there's every ministry has difficulties and rejection and pain, and the people that you're talking to are old with all sorts of things that come with being old. And that's pretty discouraging. So having teammates around to hold you up, to hand you the tissues when the tears won't stop and all of that. So may the Lord raise up many, many teams of people in so many locations. Again, I'll put some show notes of links to connect and find out about how you can start one of these ministries and how to go about doing that. Pippa, thanks so much for the time and to our listeners. Thank you for listening in. About Hymns we love. May it be that our Lord would use all of these resources to help all of us love the Lord with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind.